cad and engineering fee spli

huangyhg

cad and engineering fee split
hey everyone,
i use cad sub-contractors when i need major cad work done.  on lump sum projects what percentage is for engineering and what is for cad?  
- thanks
eric mcdonald, pe
mcdonald structural engineering, pllc
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as a first guess... with project drafting, an engineer should be able to keep two or three draftsmen busy and the pay for a draftsperson should be 1/3 to 1/2 that for an engineer...
dik
thanks dik.  that is an interesting way of looking at it.
a big grey area when engineering and cad are separate business entities is liability. first the engineer has to pay for liability insurance, licensing fee and cost of professional development (loss in productive time plus cost of seminars).  in regular firms combining engineering and cad that cost is absorbed by fees for engineering and cad.  second, who pays what percentage in case of a required repair because of a dimensional problem?  problems due to engineering design mistake are clearly up for the engineer to deal with. the majority of construction problems though are dimensional - what is the responsibility of the cad technician?
both of these issues need to be reflected within the fee split.
eric mcdonald, pe
mcdonald structural engineering, pllc
dik - i actually see the ratio the other way around - i work with cadd dudes who can keep two or three engineers occupied.
i have four engineers and one cad tech.  we overwhelm the cad tech once in a while and need to pitch in to help get the cad work finished on time, but generally he keeps up with us.  depending on the project, the cad effort is 25% to 50% of the engineering effort.
guess it depends on the skill and the function of the cad operator.  i can give a cad operator a floor plate with an outline of the rebar required and, they are pretty handy at providing rebar layout drawings as well as schedules... and i just fill in the blanks... you should try to get your cad operators to do as much of the work as possible...
dik
yes, dik - i believe allowing the cad tech to do as much as possible up front is beneficial.  the cad guy i use the most right now is one that i have worked with for 9 years at a previous employer.  my previous boss charged his time out at 65$/hr, while other free-lance cad techs in this area charge only 25 to 35$/hr.  he is now a free-lance cad tech himself and charges the 65 $/hr or 35% of lump sum projects.  on the other hand this guy knows what i expect and does a good job.  i want to be fair to him but also to myself.
eric mcdonald, pe
mcdonald structural engineering, pllc
i generally assume 2/3 of total hours for engineering, and 1/3 of total hours for drafting.  this assumes the cad person is experienced, and the engineer gives the cad person reasonably clear red marks (i.e., not a lot of questions like "what is this?  what do you mean here?").
another way of estimating is to assume 8 hours per sheet for a structural set of drawings.  this would apply to an "average" building--nothing unusual or complex.
daveatkins
mcsepllc, everyone made valid points that the % allocation between engineers and drafters depends on the capability of the drafting team.  i believe this assumes an in-house drafting team.
when dealing with drafting subcontractors, instead of cutting your pie first, show them the job scope and let them give you a fee proposal first.  then you can decide whether you want to pay that from your own fee.
letting the cad tech provide a fee proposal makes sense, whyun.  except in this case the cad tech and i worked together in the same office and we both use the same methods to calculate fees - a combined engineering and cad fee.  i actually ask him always what he thinks what the total design fee should be.  we don't have a history of split fees though.
eric mcdonald, pe
mcdonald structural engineering, pllc
if you are the engineer of record, doing a typical drafting-engineering fee split within engineering firms will put you at a disadvantage, even if it is 60-40 or even 30-70.  you are fully liable for his drafting errors.  don't try to "cheat" the guy but be sure you keep the portion of the total fee consistent with the personal professional liability you have.
it seems that you are not dealing with a subcontracting firm but an individual.  you can agree on an hourly rate not to exceed the maximum you are willing to bear.