delegated engineer

huangyhg

delegated engineer
in our neck of the woods an architect can perform engineering "purely incidental" to his practice, and vice versa.  what this actually means from a practical standpoint seems to be a gray area, and we find that each of the surrounding building dept's has their own interpretation.
where the architect can be the design professional of record, what happens if he wants to delegate some aspect of the design?  specific case involves a small kennel like facility at a site with poor soil conditions.  architect wanted us (structural engineers) to do the foundation design only.  because we were not sure who then becomes the engineer of record for whole project, we declined.  did not want to become eor for whole project by default.  not exactly a large project, but seems to be a can of worms from a liability standpoint.
anyone agree or disagree with our position?

designing the foundations only is fine from a liability standpoint.  it's done all the time for pre-engineered metal buildings.  most commercial building projects have some component that is delegated to another engineer (stairs, cladding, etc.).  just make sure your documents clearly state the scope of your design.
i agree with taro but would add one thing.  for any specific project, there still must be an engineer of record for the entire structure.  for pre-engineered buildings, we may only design the footings, but we typically are the eor of the building, ensuring that the pre-engineered structure has been designed per the applicable codes and loads and that the design was performed by a licensed engineer.
i think in most usa states, there must be an identified eor for the entire project..not a number of engineers for different pieces.
jae...in most locales i think you are correct; however, here in our sunny state that gray area that fss mentions can preclude "eor" designation, as the architect of record is allowed to perform that for certain sizes of buildings (just as an engineer may "architecturally" design a building in the process of putting together a simple "box" building).
clear definition of scope will differentiate and an additional caveat that you would not be accepting the designation of eor would be appropriate, to both the client and the local building official.
ron is that true there?  i understood that every building needed someone responsible to "put all the pieces together" into a coherent whole.  the concept of engineering a building always requires someone overseeing all the different "parts" and ensuring that the connected sum of the parts meets code.
if fss just does the footings, and a pre-engineered bldg engineer just does the framing, who ensures that they properly work together?  how does this work in practice in florida?
jae, at least with a pre-engineered bldg there is an engineer involved with the above ground structure.  my original post referred to basic wood-framed or block bldgs where only architect was involved.  then it gets down to whether an architect can in effect become an eor.  i figure that if something is getting "delegated," then project is complex enough to require an actual engineer to be the eor.  that was logic behind us turning down the project as owner did not want to pay additional fees for us to review/complete any engineering on above ground structure.
actually, texas does not require a designated eor either. i sent the board an e-mail to verify that because it seemed absurd to me, and that does not apply to just premanufactured buildings, either. the owner or architect can apparently, legally retain any number of engineers to do any number of "pieces" of the structure, and no one is required to put it all together. all i have to do is stamp and sign my portion of the work as do each of the other engineers. i ran into this recently on two projects and it has been a nightmare in each case. i was told in one case while trying to do some coordination to be sure that the building actually matched the foundation that the permit set did not count, even though it was stamped and signed, and that they would worry about coordination later.
do be sure to list your scope very carefully. i also made sure that the different sheets were numbered differently, eg for one project my sheets were sf (structural foundation sheets) and another engineers drawings were ss (structural steel sheets). i also had to ask the client to change the title sheet so that my name did not appear as structural engineer on the cover sheet. i was not structural engineer for the project, and therefore had to insist that the steel designers name also be placed on the title sheet, or that mine be removed. you also need to be sure that your construction services arelimited if you do decide to do this kind of work, so that if you are conscientious you do not wind up getting all of the calls simply because you respond. i don't like it, buit it is what is done here.
jae...strange, but true.  here's the relevant excerpt from chapter 481 of the florida statute for licensure of architects:
(4)  notwithstanding the provisions of this part or of any other law, no registered engineer whose principal practice is civil or structural engineering, or employee or subordinate under the responsible supervision or control of the engineer, is precluded from performing architectural services which are purely incidental to his or her engineering practice, nor is any registered architect, or employee or subordinate under the responsible supervision or control of such architect, precluded from performing engineering services which are purely incidental to his or her architectural practice. however, no engineer shall practice architecture or use the designation "architect" or any term derived therefrom, and no architect shall practice engineering or use the designation "engineer" or any term derived therefrom.
there is a similar provision in the engineering law (chapter 471).  further, florida allows general contractors to structurally design one and two family residences (fss...you know more about this than i, so correct me if i'm off base here!), even though there is a formal design submittal requirement now with the inclusion of shear wall design.  fortunately, most general contractors won't touch it!
the same is true in texas (although i am being lazy and am not going to type the statute word for word). architects are not required to design industrial buildings of moderate size. engineers are not required to design small buildings commercial or non-public, and no one at all is required to design residential structures - single family, there are some restrictions for multi-family. unfortunately, any general contractor here seems not only willing to touch it but to roll in it. and since they are not required to be licensed....there is also not any formal structural plan check although "plans" are generally submitted to some local zoning or building authority. most people here seem to regard building permits as a form of taxation rather than as a form of quality control.