he mill order se

huangyhg

the mill order set
has anyone ever dealt with the term "mill order set"?  due to steel mills going onto allocation, this type of set is becoming more and more common with fast track design, and i'm wondering how you deal with in terms of liability when steel sizes change due to the normal course of design.  
my take on it is that the structural engineer is creating the mill order set from a preliminary architectural set.  it only includes general framing sizes, no details, no sections.  it is nothing more than a good guess as to what the basic steel framing is going to be.  if the contractor wants to purchase steel from it so he can get material on site within the rushed fast track schedule, then it is his own risk if anything changes.  the contractor cannot hold the engineer responsible if changes are required.
loui1:
i have done mill order packages for buildings. it does seem to have become more common in the last few years, as lead times for steel have stretched out.
on our mill order drawings, we show, with sizes, all 'major' steel pieces. in the case of a building: floor and roof beams, columns, joists, metal decking and any other items that may not be readily available.
we do not show connection details, misc. pieces such as edge of floor plates, angles, kicker braces, etc. as usually we do not know what these things will look like at the time.
this usually is enough for the fabricator to order the members from the mill(s). this can be very helpful, as not all memeber sizes are readily avialable. rolling schedules play into this. some shapes are only rolled every 6 to 8 weeks. and if the fabricator misses the cutoff date for the rolling of a particular shape, he may not be able to obtain it for a while. occasionlly, we have had fabricators come back to us and ask us if they can subsitute the next size of beam up (say change a w24x55 to a w24x62) becasue they can obtain these sizes quicker.
we warn everyone upfront that if the decision is made to go down this mill order path, that we will size memebrs based on the architects drawings at the time. but, if the architect or owner changes something that affects the framing sizes/spaces/layout/etc we will not be held responsible for steel   
thank you for your input.  i like your last paragraph, since i just got off the phone with our contractor who said that if any steel changes from the mill order set, no matter who changes it, he will pass the fabricator's change order on to us, the structural engineer!!  he didnt like the note i placed on every sheet of the set saying that the some change should be expected as part of the normal design process.  i pretty much told him to go to hell, and not to confuse mill order with a stamped stuctural steel set.  architecture is only at 15% complete, how can i deliever 100% drawings!!??  good grief
any other thoughts/experiences would be appreciated.
i have done mill order sets as well, and the question is, "who pays for the inevitable revised member sizes which occur in the normal course of design?"
think about it--neither the design team, nor the general contractor, nor the steel erector, nor the steel fabricator should have to "eat" this cost (although sometimes a fabricator can put a   
loui1:
it is indeed unfortunate when contractors take the confrontational approach versus the cooperative approach.
its been my experience that projects always go much better, and all parties come out farther ahead reputationally and finacially by using a cooperative approach, but some people/organizations never seem to learn this lesson.
unfurtunately, imho, all you can do is cya and make it clear, in writing, to your client, or the owner, or overall project mamager that you produced the mill order package in an effort to help the overall project scedule, and that the risk from using the package remains with the contractor or owner, and if they are not willing to accept that risk, then they will need to wait for the 100% structural drawings that will go out with the 100% drawings of the other disciplines.
good luck on this one. not a position any of us like to find ourselves in.
sounds like this is going to be a fun battle.
i'm working with a design build contractor, he should have at least some knowledge about this subject.