aisc fabricator certifcation

huangyhg

aisc fabricator certifcation
i have a project where i required in the specification that the fabricator and erector be certified under the aisc certification.
the contractor (cm) selected a fabricator who is not aisc certified. my question is, have any one of you encountered this situation before? if yes, what was your action?
i have on previous project allowed, after reviewing papers and qc plans, welder certifications, a non-aisc certified fabricator and it was a mistake because i wound up holding the fabricator's hand every step of the way.  however, it was a negative experience.
any feedback would be appreciated.
regards,
lutfi
my experiences are that the fabricator should be certified and have demonstrated experience in like projects in the past 5 years.  i say this because i've had two recent experiences that demonstrate the pros and cons of certification.
the first experience was good and the fabricator though small was very consciensous about his work.  all necesasry welds etc were submitted when needed and were acceptable etc.
the second was a fabricator that was not certified and we took an exception to the rules over qa/qc documentation.  no problems.
the third was a certified fabricator that had not experienced the type of fabrication in some time.  major mistake; problems submitting and approving weld procedures, subpunching etc.  every little question was brought up.  it really was terrible.
thus i summed these experiences into two categories: with experience and without.  if the fabricator can demostrate experience in your work give them the benefit.  if they can't boot them.
regards,
qshake
eng-tips forums:real solutions for real problems really quick.
lutfi,
i just recently ran into this problem.  i got a call during bidding from a fabricator that was not aisc certified.  i basically had him send over a resume showing their past work experience.  i talked to the engineers that worked on those jobs.  it seemed that there was no past problems.  so i basically excused him from being aisc registered.  it ended up not mattering anyways, he didn't get the job.
aisc certification doesn't guarantee quality, but it gets rid of the worst of the problem children.  i see aisc certification as a bare minimum.
your contractor signed a contract to fulfill the specifications.  if they provide a fabricator who isn't certified, they're in violation, pure and simple.  and if you require certification and then undermine your own specs by waiving such a fundamental requirement, you are then assuming responsibility for determining the fabricator's competency.
for what it's worth, aisc has been on a "no more waivers" campaign.  there will be an article in the june issue of modern steel construction on this topic.
hg
this happened on one of my recent projects.  it ended up causing a delay of a month or two because our client basically did their own version of a quality audit for the fabricator.  in no way, however, was it as stringent as the requirements for aisc certification.  has everyone seen the requirements?  it is a huge document that verifies everything from management responsibility to detailing to internal and fabrication quality control to testing and training...  getting the opinions of engineers who have worked with the fabricator in the past is fine, but it is not enough to allow a waiver.
i also don't think that by allowing a waiver you are assuming responsibility of the fabricator's competency.  it should be the owner's decision to enforce the specs or allow a waiver.  the owner and contractor are in charge of quality control, not the engineer.  all the engineer can do in this case is point out the benefits of using a aisc certified fabricator and the pitfalls of allowing a waiver.  i advised against allowing a waiver on my project, but it was too late in the process to find a new fabricator.  some major problems ensued.  the project was in metric and the fabricator had no clue how to convert metric beam sizes to english.  their shop drawings were submitted in english units and i rejected them, causing another month of delays.
hopefully aisc's "no more waivers" campaign will be successful.  
you might consider these questions:
-do the people that normally furnish this service in this area typically have this certification?
-are the people that have this certification willing to bid on this project?
-is there more than one company with this certification that will bid the work?
-are companies that have this certification normally competitive with those that do not?
with a certification that involves a fair bit of red tape, it will be the larger companies that get it first.  i have seen this kind of requirement abused in the past, when a specification that might have been appropriate for a large project was used for a small one, and there was basically no one that met the certification that was interested in, or normally competitive on, the project.

your post didn't say if you were building an outhouse or a pentagon, or whether it was in nyc or tibet.
a recent project that i the gc use a known but non-aisc certified fabricator, mainly because i thought it was too small to mess up, ended up with columns that were 2" too tall, causing the floor joists to pitch downward to the exterior bearing walls.
results: big arguements between the contractors, job holdups, withholding of payments, fabricator thrown off the job, etc.