huangyhg

what not to show on structural drawings
hi i have a question related to structural drawings and details and relates to non-structural items or items not specifically designed by structural engineer.
1) should structural foundation detail show foundation drains? typically this, in my opinion, should be shown on civil or arch drawings and not on structural.
2) should structural foundation detail show insulation? again, should not since it belongs on architectural dwgs.
3) similarly any items such as roof insulation, flashing etc should not be shown on structural drawings.
the main question is: is there an official reference (code document, case document, sei document, dpic document, etc) that lays it out in terms of what should not be shown on structural drawings from a liability and responsibility standpoint?
your response and help is greatly appreciated
thanks,

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we show foundation drainage system and insulation and say "see arch. dwgs". for roofing, we show a finish line and say "roofing materials - see arch. dwgs".

you will probably not find any "standard way" of doing it. i have seen drain tile on architectural, plumbing and structural drawings. it may also depend upon whether the project goes out in multiple packages or not.
my philosophy is if it affects the structural integrity, then i will generally show it. for instance, if drain tile is not installed it can cause an overload condition on a basement wall or retaining wall.
it also makes some sense to show perimeter insulation and drain tile on the foundation drawings, since it needs to be installed at the same time.
most building codes describe what has to be shown on structural drawings as a minimum. my old boss used to say "beams, columns, footings, walls", but i think that can be a little light.
if it is not structural you do not have to show it, but sometimes having it on the plans will help with coordination.
i mean you could show everything on the plans from the rebar to the flashing, but i think that crowds a drawing. also, with bim out there it maybe that plans will start showing everything anyway, so showing it now may help everyone get used to it.

1. if the foundation drain affects the structure, i show it.
2. if the insulation affects the slab or footing layout, postions of the structure, i would show it, only to show coordination with the architectural requirements.
3. insulation - hardly ever, but flashing, sometimes in critical areas, but always referring back to architectural details.
there are mo formal guidelines that i know of - just professional preferences. re
i would agree with most of teh responses so far. i typically show items that either have an effect on the structural capacity (such as drains) or impact the construction sequence. then i refer them to the appropriate designer (arch, civil, etc). also, if you need a drain, say, behind a retaining wall, then if you don't show it, how will the civil know to provide?
i also show waterproofing under foundations, elevator pits, etc. and insulation under walk in coolers and freezers, if needed. i typically don't show roof insulation in my details, unless there is some specific reason, say a clear height of a roof top unit frame over the finished roof line.

if you need it for structural purposes - show it. while more is usually better than less - you will/might be responsibe for it.....
foundation drains - we show it for the same reasons as above - it significantly affects structural behavior and i want to have control over that.
for the others (flashing, insulation, etc) we might show the presence of it for context, but we would not note it.
my view of structural drawings:
1. the most important part of any structural drawing is the notes. think of the drawings not as linework supported by notes, but by notes that are supported and clarified by linework.
2. you should note (specify) all items that are structural elements and all items that are crucial to the strength and stability to those structural elements.

jae - my star for you! . all too many times i see structural drawings with no notes or so little . . . maybe it was overkill when i learned from our mentor - but nothing on a drawing was left to assumption or presumption.
one thing to keep in mind is that you are creating drawings for the fabricator/detailer not necessarily for the builder. what ever the fabricator needs to know should be on the drawings. also, keep in mind that you are not just putting stuff on the drawings that affect the structure as it is designed currently, but also for when something changes and you need to redesign. drain openings are important to see on slab plans because you will likely want to show the slab slope lines terminating at the drain opening.
- jw

jae,
i agree that notes on structural drawings are important. while i do not quarrel with anything you have said, i am not so sure that notes necessarily take precedence over drawings. rather than leaving the matter to be decided by a bunch of lawyers, perhaps it would be wise to review both the notes and the drawings. a deficiency in either is likely to be problematic for the engineer producing the documents if the matter ever gets to court.
best regards,
ba

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